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Legislative Assembly for the ACT: 1997 Week 12 Hansard (11 November) . . Page.. 3906 ..

MR STEFANIAK (continuing):

It is more than just some of them being troubled children. You have situations where young people are using standover tactics and committing multiple assaults on staff and other residents. Believe me, Ms Reilly, as you are well aware, the staff try very hard and do a very good job there in terms of the young detainees. They certainly do all they can to ensure that the behavioural standards are met and that everyone within that institution gets on as best they can. But, by the nature of some of the young people there, there are going to be instances where that is simply not possible.

I can recall a conversation I had back in 1995 with the then Official Visitor, Bill Aldcroft, about this very problem. He was extolling the need in the ACT for some very difficult young people to actually go - whether they wanted to or not - to a New South Wales institution which was more appropriate to their needs, saying that it would be better for everyone at Quamby if they went there. In terms of what we are talking about today, that is really what this is all about. We would not be bringing forward the legislation if there was not that need. It is not correct simply to say, "This can all be taken up in the Children's Services Act".

Whilst we are dealing with only a handful of people, they are still a handful of people causing considerable problems. Despite the very best efforts of the staff and everyone else to resolve those problems, on some occasions that simply cannot occur. You say that this is a simplistic solution. A lot of the best solutions are fairly simple. This is fairly basic. We have, across our borders and not all that far away from here, another State which has nine institutions - some of which, Ms Reilly, are quite modern; some of which, in fact, are very appropriate for the type of young person whom I think we are talking about here and with a track record of taking ACT offenders in years gone by.

So, I think what you are saying is not correct. It does not recognise reality. The courts cannot take everything into account. That is quite obvious. I am sure that, in the instances I gave, which Mr Young told me about, the courts would have liked to actually send to New South Wales those three inmates whom I spoke about who were causing great difficulties there. On five different occasions we tried to have them sent interstate, and on each occasion we could not because, if they themselves say that they are happy at Quamby, at present there is nothing that can occur. That is a real problem. That is why this amendment has been brought forward. I do not think it is something that can wait. It is something that the staff, the Official visitor and any number of people associated with juvenile justice have been wanting for some time, along with the other amendments which you have actually indicated that you are supporting. So, I just reiterate that. Whilst we are not dealing with a large number of young people, this is an important issue. It is an important issue for the staff and for the other residents of Quamby.

MR MOORE (12.24): I indicated in the in-principle stage that I had significant difficulties with this issue and asked the Minister to give us some examples, which he has done. Whilst I heard the Minister talking about individuals who may be violent to other people - his term was "using standover tactics" - in some ways, of as great a concern for me is a situation where you simply have two people who cannot stand each other, who are effectively at war. We see it in institutions other than Quamby. We see it in schools, where two students are very difficult. Individually, they are absolutely fine; but, when you put the two of them together, then you have an explosive mixture.

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