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Legislative Assembly for the ACT: 1997 Week 12 Hansard (11 November) . . Page.. 3900 ..

MR MOORE (continuing):

That is the issue at hand. It seems to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, that indeed the legislation does provide for those transfers. We had a very similar issue before us a very short while ago with regard to adults. The Assembly determined that it was appropriate to allow this sort of transfer of adults as a decision of the executive arm of government which, in turn, the Minister can delegate. Ms Tucker raised the question here: What do you mean by "executive"? As far as I am concerned, an executive decision is one that is in the responsibility of the Minister. The Minister, in turn, can delegate it. That is reasonable. In this case, we are actually very specific under the legislation in directing the Minister to delegate this particular decision to the director. Whilst it is executive and there is ministerial responsibility, in the legislation we are quite specific about the director having this power.

What the Assembly did in the case of the adults was to say, "We are concerned about the way this might be used. Therefore, we want to make sure that every example shall be reported within a couple of weeks to the Minister and the Minister, in turn, shall report to the Assembly". That is according to my recollection. Perhaps it was set out as it is in this particular piece of legislation, where the director must report on a particular direction directly to the Standing Committee on Legal Affairs. That double-check, that balance, or that review process, was there particularly to ensure that this technique was not used just to get rid of the troublesome kids. The reason why young people are detained in a place like Quamby is that they are troublesome. That is the difficulty. I cannot see the director getting rid of all the troublesome children in Quamby - as perhaps is suggested to a certain extent by Ms Tucker - by removing them one at a time, because then he, or she - depending on who is the director at any given time - will not have a job to do.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I must say that, for me, this is a particularly difficult decision. It was a difficult enough decision with regard to adults. I think it is an even more difficult decision here. Ms Tucker challenged the Minister to say - and I will be interested in his response - what evidence there is that the courts do not take into account perhaps a very violent person being held in Quamby and the impact that has on the other residents there. As I see it, we must ensure that that is taken into account in a facility like Quamby, or we need to completely rebuild the facility to ensure that such people can be isolated from others.

I had the pleasure within the last couple of weeks of visiting Quamby and seeing how that process has gone. As a matter of interest, I tested the electric fence just to see what sort of a belt it gives, the question having been raised in this Assembly. I do not know whether I just do not have a good grip on earth or whether I cannot be considered a shocking person; but I did not receive a shock. Perhaps somebody saw me reaching over to touch it and turned it off so that I would not get a belt. I do not know exactly what it was; but I certainly did not receive a shock. My understanding is that the electric fence in Quamby is similar in its jolt to an electric fence used on a farm. Indeed, on a number of occasions, I have inadvertently touched those fences, and they do give enough of a belt to discourage somebody from touching them.

It seems to me that there are some questions that the Minister has to answer before I am prepared to support this piece of legislation. The particular one, which Ms Tucker raised, is that the courts do not take into account what is, effectively, the danger to other young people in Quamby. I think it is very important to say that, whilst these people might be

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